D.: What is
the practice?
M.: The
Self is That where there is no “I” thought. That which rises in the body as “I” is the mind. Constantly
search for ‘I’; the source of the ego. Find out ‘Who am I?’ The pure ‘I’ is the
reality, the Absolute Existence-Consciousness-Bliss. When That is forgotten,
all miseries crop up; when held fast, the miseries do not affect the person.
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D.: What is that
one thing, knowing which all doubts are solved?
M.:
Know the doubter. If the doubter be held, the doubts will
not arise. Here the doubter is transcendent. Again
when the doubter ceases to exist, there will be no doubts arising. From where
will they arise? All are jnanis, jivanmuktas. Only
they are not aware of the fact. Doubts must be uprooted. This means that the
doubter must be uprooted. Here the doubter is the mind.
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Some men
asked the Master questions which ultimately resolved themselves into one, that
‘I’ is not perceptible however much they might struggle.
The Master’s reply was in the usual strain: “Who is it that says
that ‘I’ is not perceptible? Is there an
‘I’ ignorant, and an ‘I’ elusive? Are there two ‘I’s in the same person? Ask yourself
these questions. It is the mind which says that ‘I’ is not perceptible. Where
is that mind from? Know the mind. You will find it a myth. King Janaka said, ‘I
have discovered the thief who had been ruining me so long. I will now deal with
him summarily. Then I shall be happy.’”
D.: How to know the ‘I’?
M.: The ‘I-I’ is always there. There is no
knowing it. It is not a new knowledge acquired.
What is new and not here and now will be evanescent only. The ‘I’ is always
there. There is obstruction to its knowledge and it is called ignorance. Remove
the ignorance and knowledge shines forth. In fact this ignorance or even
knowledge is not for Atman. They are only overgrowths to be cleared off. That is
why Atman is said to be beyond knowledge and ignorance. It remains as it
naturally is - that is all.
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D.: How
to remove the ignorance?
M.: While
lying in bed in Tiruvannamalai you dream in your sleep that you find yourself
in another town. The scene is real to you. Your body remains here on your bed
in a room. Can a town enter your room, or could you have left this place and
gone elsewhere, leaving the body here? Both are impossible. Therefore your
being here and seeing another town are both unreal. They appear real to the
mind. The ‘I’ of the dream soon vanishes, then another ‘I’ speaks of the dream.
This ‘I’ was not in the dream. Both the ‘I’s are unreal. There is the substratum of the
mind which continues all along, giving rise to so many scenes. An ‘I’ rises
forth with every thought and with its disappearance that ‘I’ disappears too.
Many ‘I’s are born and die every moment. The subsisting mind is the real
trouble. That is the thief according to Janaka. Find him out and you will be
happy.
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Deho aham (I
am the body) is limitation and is the root of all mean and selfish actions and
desires.
Brahma aham (I
am Brahman) is passing beyond limitation and signifies sympathy, charity, love
etc., which are divine and virtuous.
D.: How does a grihasta (householder) fare in
the scheme of moksha (liberation)?
M.: Why do you think you are a grihasta? If you go out as a sanyasi, a similar thought
(that you are a sanyasi)
will haunt you. Whether you continue in the household, or renounce it and go to
the forest, your mind haunts you. The ego is the source of thoughts. It creates
the body and the world and makes you think you are a grihasta. If you renounce the
world, it will only substitute the thought sanyasi for grihasta and the environments
of the forest for those of the household. But the mental obstacles are always
there. They even increase in new
surroundings. There is no help in the change of environment. The obstacle is the
mind. It must be got over whether at home or in the forest. If you can do it in
the forest, why not in the home? Therefore why change the environment? Your efforts can
be made even now, in whatever environment you may be. The environment never
abandons you, according to your desire. Look at me. I left home. Look at
yourselves. You have come here leaving the home environment. What do you find
here? Is this different from what you left? Even if one is immersed in nirvikalpa
samadhi for
years together, when he emerges from it he will find himself in the environment
which he is bound to have. That is the reason for the Acharya emphasising sahaja samadhi
in
preference to nirvikalpa samadhi in his excellent work Viveka
Chudamani.
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Mr. Ekanatha Rao: What
is sphurana (a kind of indescribable but palpable sensation in the heart
centre)?
M.: Sphurana is
felt on several occasions, such as in fear, excitement, etc. Although it is
always and all over, yet it is felt at a particular centre and on particular
occasions. It is also associated with antecedent
causes and confounded with the body. Whereas, it is all alone and pure; it is
the Self. If the mind be fixed on the sphurana
and one senses it continuously and
automatically it is realisation. Again sphurana
is the foretaste of Realisation. It is
pure. The subject and object proceed from it. If the man mistakes himself for
the subject, objects must necessarily appear different from him. They are
periodically withdrawn and projected, creating the world and the subject’s
enjoyment of the same. If, on the other hand, the man feels himself to be the
screen on which the subject and object are projected there can be no confusion,
and he can remain watching their appearance and disappearance without any
perturbation to the Self.
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The ajnani
sees the Jnani active
and is confounded. The jagat
is perceived by both; but their outlooks
differ. Take the instance of the cinema. There are pictures moving on the
screen. Go and hold them. What do you hold? It is only the screen. Let the
pictures disappear. What remains over? The screen again. So also here. Even
when the world appears, see to whom it appears. Hold the substratum of the ‘I’.
After the substratum is held what does it matter if the world appears or
disappears?
The ajnani
takes the world to be
real; whereas the Jnani sees it
only as the manifestation of the Self. It is immaterial if the Self manifests
itself or ceases to do so.
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D.: Is
there knowledge in Realisation?
M.: Absence of knowledge is
sleep. There is knowledge in Realisation. But this knowledge differs from the ordinary
one of the relation of subject and object. It is absolute knowledge.
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How is the mind to be spiritually disposed and the work kept
going as well?
M.: The
mind is only a projection from the Self, appearing in the waking state. In deep
sleep, you do not say whose son you are and so on. As soon as you wake up you
say you are so and so, and recognise the world and so on.
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In deep sleep mind is merged and not destroyed. That which
merges reappears. It may happen in meditation also. But the mind which is destroyed
cannot reappear. The yogi’s aim must be to destroy it and not to sink in laya.
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Everyone
knows ‘I am!’ No one can deny his own being. The man in deep slumber is not
aware; while awake he seems to be aware. But it is the same person. There is no
change in the one who slept and the one who is now awake. In deep sleep he was
not aware of his body; there was no body-consciousness. In the wakeful state he
is aware of his body; there is body-consciousness. Therefore the difference
lies in the emergence of body-consciousness and not in any change in the Real
Consciousness.
The body and body-consciousness arise together and
sink together. All this
amounts to saying that there are no limitations in deep sleep, whereas there
are limitations in the waking state. These limitations are the bondage; the
feeling ‘The body is I’ is the error. This false sense of ‘I’ must go. The real
‘I’ is always there. It is here and now. It
never appears anew and disappears again. That which is must also persist for
ever. That which appears anew will also be lost. Compare deep sleep and waking.
The body appears in one state but not in the other. Therefore the body will be
lost. The consciousness was pre-existent and will survive the body. In fact,
there is no one who does not say ‘I am’. The wrong knowledge of ‘I am the body’
is the cause of all the mischief. This wrong knowledge must go. That is
Realisation. Realisation is not acquisition of anything new nor it is a new
faculty. It is only removal of all camouflage.
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Sri Bhagavan remarked: People see the world. The perception implies the existence
of a seer and the seen. The objects are alien to the seer. The seer is
intimate, being the Self. They do not however turn their attention to finding
out the obvious seer but run about analysing the seen. The more the mind
expands, the farther it goes and renders Self-Realisation more difficult and
complicated. The man must directly see the seer and realise the Self.
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Everyone is the Self,
indeed infinite. Yet each one mistakes the body for
the Self. To know anything, illumination is necessary. Such illuminating agency
can only be in the form of light which is however lighting the physical light
and darkness. So then that other Light lies beyond the apparent light and
darkness. It is itself
neither light nor darkness but is said to be Light because It illumines both.
It is also Infinite and
remains as Consciousness. Consciousness is the Self of which everyone is aware.
No one is away from the Self. So each one is Self-realised. Yet what a mystery
that no one knows this fundamental fact, and desires to realise the Self? This
ignorance is due to the mistaking of the body for the Self. Realisation now
consists in getting rid of this false idea that one is not realised.
Realisation is not anything newly got. It must be already there in order that
it may be permanent. Otherwise Realisation is not worth attempting. After the false notion
‘I-am-the-body’ or ‘I have not realised’ is removed, Supreme Consciousness or
the Self alone is left over, which is however called Realisation in the present
state of knowledge. However, the truth is that Realisation is eternal
and already there, here and now. Finally, Realisation amounts to elimination of
ignorance and nothing more or less.
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M.: Sat is aham pratyaya saram = the Self of selves. The sadhu
is that Self of selves. He is immanent
in all. Can anyone remain without the Self? No. So no one is away from sat sanga.
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Misery is
due to objects. If they are not there, there will be no contingent thoughts and so
misery is wiped off. “How will objects cease to be?” is the next question. The shrutis
and the sages say that the objects are only mental
creations. They have no substantive being. Investigate the matter and
ascertain the truth of the statement. The result will be the
conclusion that the objective world is in the subjective consciousness. The
Self is thus the only Reality which permeates and also envelops the world.
Since there is no duality, no thoughts will arise to disturb your peace. This
is Realisation of the Self. The Self is eternal and so also its Realisation.
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D.: What
is the object of Self-Realisation?
M.: Self-Realisation
is the final goal and it is the end in itself.
D.: I
mean, what is the use of Self-Realisation?
M.: Why
should you seek Self-Realisation? Why do you not rest content with your present
state? It is evident that you are discontented with the present state. The
discontent is at an end if you realise the Self.
D.: What
is that Self-Realisation which removes the discontent? I am in the world and
there are wars in it. Can Self-Realisation put an end to it?
M.: Are
you in the world? Or is the world in you?
D.: I
do not understand. The world is certainly around me.
M.: You
speak of the world and happenings in it. They are mere ideas in you. The ideas
are in the mind. The mind is within you. And so the world is within you.
D.: I
do not follow you. Even if I do not think of the world, the world is still
there.
M.: Do
you mean to say that the world is apart from the mind and it can exist in the
absence of the mind?
D.: Yes.
M.: Does
the world exist in your deep sleep?
D.: It
does.
M.: Do
you see it in your sleep?
D.: No,
I don’t. But others, who are awake, see it.
M.: Are
you so aware in your sleep? Or do you become aware of the other’s knowledge
now?
D.: In
my waking state.
M.: So
you speak of waking knowledge and not of sleep-experience. The existence of the
world in your waking and dream states is admitted because they are the products
of the mind. The mind is withdrawn in sleep and the world is in the condition
of a seed. It becomes manifest over again when you wake up. The ego springs
forth, identifies itself with the body and sees the world. So the world is a
mental creation.
D.: How
can it be?
M.: Do
you not create a world in your dream? The waking state also is a long drawn out
dream. There must be a seer behind the waking and dream experiences. Who is
that seer? Is it the body?
D.: It
cannot be.
M.: Is
it the mind?
D.: It
must be so.
M.: But you remain in the absence of the mind.
D.: How?
M.: In
deep sleep.
D.: l
do not know if I am then.
M.: If
you were not how do you recollect yesterday’s experiences? Is it possible that
there was a break in the continuity of the ‘I’ during sleep?
D.: It
may be.
M.: If
so, a Johnson may wake up as a Benson. How will the identity of the individual
be established?
D.: I
don’t know.
M.: If
this argument is not clear, follow a different line. You admit “I slept well”,
“I feel refreshed after a sound sleep”. So sleep was your experience. The
experiencer now identifies himself with the ‘I’ in the speaker. So this ‘I’
must have been in sleep also.
D.: Yes.
M.: So
‘I’ was in sleep, if the world was then there, did it say that it existed?
D.: No.
But the world tells me its existence now. Even if I deny its existence, I may
knock myself against a stone and hurt my foot. The injury proves the existence
of the stone and so of the world.
M.: Quite
so. The stone hurts the foot. Does the foot say that there is the stone?
D.: No.
- ‘I’.
M.: Who
is this ‘I’? It cannot be the body nor the mind as we have seen before. This
‘I’ is the one who experiences the waking, dream and sleep states. The three
states are changes which do not affect the individual. The experiences are like
pictures passing on a screen in the cinema. The appearance and disappearance of
the pictures do not affect the screen. So also, the three states alternate with
one another leaving the Self unaffected. The waking and the dream states are
creations of the mind. So the Self covers all. To know that the Self remains
happy in its perfection is Self-Realisation. Its use lies in the realisation of
Perfection and thus of Happiness.
D.: Can
it be complete happiness to remain Self-realised if one does not contribute to
the happiness of the world? How can one be so happy when there is a war in Spain , a war in China
M.: The
Self was pointed out to you to cover the universe and also transcend it. The
world cannot remain apart from the Self. If the realisation of such Self be
called selfishness that selfishness must cover the world also. It is nothing
contemptible.
D.: Does
not the realised man continue to live just like a non-realised being?
M.: Yes,
with this difference that the realised being does not see the world as being
apart from the Self, he possesses true knowledge and the internal happiness of
being perfect, whereas the other person sees the world apart, feels
imperfection and is miserable. Otherwise their physical actions are similar.
D.: The
realised being also knows that there are wars being waged in the world, just
like the other man.
M.: Yes.
D.: How
then can he be happy?
M.: Is
the cinema screen affected by a scene of fire burning or sea rising? So it is
with the Self. The idea that I am the body or the mind is so deep that one
cannot get over it even if convinced otherwise. One experiences a dream and
knows it to be unreal on waking. Waking experience is unreal in other states. So
each state contradicts the others. They are therefore mere changes taking place
in the seer, or phenomena appearing in the Self, which is unbroken and remains
unaffected by them. Just as the waking, dream and sleep states are phenomena,
so also birth, growth and death are phenomena in the Self. which continues to
be unbroken and unaffected. Birth and death are only ideas. They pertain to the
body or the mind. The Self exists before the birth of this body and will remain
after the death of this body. So it is with the series of bodies taken up in
succession. The Self is immortal. The phenomena are changeful and appear mortal.
The fear of death is of the body. It is not true of the Self. Such fear is due
to ignorance. Realisation
means True Knowledge of the Perfection and Immortality of the Self.
Mortality is only an idea and cause of misery. You get rid of it by realising
the Immortal nature of the Self.
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The same lady continued: If the world is only a dream, how should it be harmonised
with the Eternal Reality?
M.: The
harmony consists in the realisation of its inseparateness from the Self.
D.: But
a dream is fleeting and unreal. It is also contradicted by the waking state.
M.: The
waking experiences are similar.
D.: One
lives fifty years and finds a continuity in the waking experience which is
absent in dreams.
M.: You
go to sleep and dream a dream in which the experiences of fifty years are
condensed within the short duration of the dream, say five minutes. There is
also a continuity in the dream. Which is real now? Is the period covering fifty
years of your waking state real or the short duration of five minutes of your
dream? The standards of time differ in the two states. That is all. There is no
other difference between the experiences.
D.: The
spirit remains unaffected by the passing phenomena and by the successive bodies
of repeated births. How does each body get the life to set it acting?
M.: The
spirit is differentiated from matter and is full of life. The body is animated
by it.
D.: The
realised being is then the spirit and unaware of the world.
M.: He
sees the world but not as separate from the Self.
D.: If
the world is full of pain why should he continue the world-idea?
M.: Does
the realised being tell you that the world is full of pain? It is the other one
who feels the pain and seeks the help of the wise saying that the world is
painful. Then the wise one explains from his experience that if one withdraws
within the Self there is an end of pain. The pain is felt so long as the object
is different from oneself. But when the Self is found to be an undivided whole
who and what is there to feel? The realized mind is the Holy Spirit and the
other mind is the home of the devil. For the realised being this is the Kingdom of Heaven Kingdom of Heaven
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D.: The
present experiences are the result of past Karma. If we know the mistakes
committed in the past, we can rectify them.
M.: If
one mistake is rectified there yet remains the whole sanchita which
is going to give you innumerable births. So that is not the procedure. The more
you prune a plant, the more vigorously it grows. The more you rectify your
Karma, the more it accumulates.
Find the root of Karma and cut it off.
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D.: So
it amounts to this. To see a Jnani
is not to understand him. You see the jnani’s body
and not his jnanam. One must therefore be a Jnani
to know a Jnani.
M.: The
Jnani sees no one as an ajnani. All are only jnanis
in his sight. In the ignorant state one
superimposes his ignorance on a Jnani
and mistakes him for a doer. In the state of jnana, the Jnani sees nothing
separate from the Self. The Self is all shining and only pure jnana. So there is
no ajnana in his sight.
There is an illustration for this kind of allusion or super-imposition. Two
friends went to sleep side by side. One of them dreamt that both of them had
gone on a long journey and had strange experiences. On waking up he recapitulated
them and asked his friend if it was not so. The other one simply ridiculed him
saying that it was only his dream and could not affect the other. So it is with
the ajnani who superimposes his illusive ideas on others.
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Regarding ajnana
in early youth and jnana at
the present time, Sri Bhagavan said: There is no jnana as
it is commonly understood. The ordinary ideas of jnana and
ajnana are only relative and false. They are not real and therefore
not abiding. The true state is the non-dual Self. It is eternal and abides
whether one is aware or not. It is like kanthabharana
or the tenth man.
D.: Someone
else points it out.
M.: That
one is not external. You mistake the body for the Guru. But the Guru does not
think himself so. He is the formless Self. That is within you; he appears
without only to guide you.
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D.: How
did I get this body?
M.: You
speak of ‘I’ and the ‘body’. There is the relationship between the two. You are
not therefore the body. The question does not occur to the body because it is
inert. There is an occasion when you are not aware of the body - namely, in
deep sleep. The question does not arise then. Nevertheless you are there in
sleep. To whom does the question arise now?
D.: The
ego.
M.: Yes.
The body and the
ego rise up together and sink together. There is an occasion when you are not
associated with the ego in deep sleep. Now you are associated with the
ego. Of these two states which is your real state? You are present in sleep and
the same “You” is present now too. Why should the doubt arise now and not then?
You are right in saying that it is for the ego. You are not the ego. The ego is
intermediate between the Self and the body. You are the Self. Find out the
origin of the ego and see if the doubt persists. Sri Bhagavan added after a few minutes: The
answer, according to sastras, will be that the body is due to karma.
The question will be how did karma
arise? We must say “from a previous
body” and so on without end. The direct method of attack is not to depend on
invisible hypotheses but to ask “Whose Karma
is it? Or whose body?” Hence I answered
in this manner. This is more purposeful.
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D.: How
is the mind to be steadily kept right?
M.: All
living beings are aware of their surroundings and therefore intellect must be
surmised in all of them. At the same time, there is a difference between the
intellect of man and that of other animals, because man not only sees the world
as it is and acts accordingly, but also seeks fulfilment of desires and is not
satisfied with the existing state of affairs. In his attempt to fulfil his
desires he extends his vision far and wide and yet he turns away dissatisfied.
He now begins to think and reason. The desire for permanency of happiness and
of peace bespeaks such permanency in his own nature. Therefore he seeks to find
and regain his own nature, i.e., his Self. That found, all is found. Such inward seeking
is the path to be gained by man’s intellect. The intellect
itself realises after continuous practice that it is enabled by some Higher
Power to function. It cannot itself reach that Power. So it ceases to function
after a certain stage. When it thus ceases to function the Supreme Power is
still left there all alone. That is Realisation; that is the finality; that is
the goal.
It is thus plain that the purpose of the intellect is to realise its own dependence
upon the Higher Power and its inability to reach the same. So it must
annihilate itself before the goal is gained.
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M.: The Master is not outside you
as you seem to imagine. He is within, is in fact the Self. Recognise this
truth. Seek within you and find Him there. Then you will have constant
communion with Him. The message is always there; it is never silent; it can
never forsake you: nor can you ever move away from the Master. Your mind is outgoing. Because of that tendency it sees
objects as being outside and the Master among them. But the Truth is different.
The Master is
the Self. Turn the mind within and you will find the objects within. You will
also realise that it is the Master who is your very Self and there is nothing
but Him. Because you identify yourself with the body you have accepted objects
as being outside you. But are you the body? You are not. You are the Self. There
are all the objects and the whole universe.
Nothing can escape the Self. How then can you move away from
the Master who is your very Self? Suppose your body moves from place to place;
does it ever move away from your Self? Similarly, you can never be without the
Master.
Mr. Lorey was struck by the answer although he was already familiar
with the Master’s ways. He was even visibly moved. He prayed that the Grace of
the Master might abide with him.
Sri Bhagavan: The
Master being the Self. Grace is inseparable from the Self.
Mr. L. Saluted Sri Maharshi with intense fervour, saying:
that he might be enabled to realise the Truth.
M.: Is
there any moment when you have not realised the Self? Can you ever be apart
from the Self? You are always That.
D.: You
are the great Master shedding joy and bliss on the world. Your love is indeed
unlimited that you choose to abide in the world in human shape! But I wish to
know if one should necessarily realize one’s Self before being of help to the
country and a leader of men.
M.: Realise
the Self first and the rest will follow.
D.: America
M.: Certainly,
she is bound to.
D.: Thank
God that it will be so! I am a partner in an Engineering firm. But it is not of
vital concern to me. I try to bring spiritual ideals into the work-a-day life
of the firm.
M.: That
is good. If you surrender yourself to the Higher
Power all is well. That Power sees your affairs through. Only so long as you
think that you are the worker you are obliged to reap the fruits of your actions.
If on the other hand, you surrender yourself and recognize your individual self
as only a tool of the Higher Power, that Power will take over your affairs
along with the fruits of actions. You are no longer affected by them and the
work goes on unhampered. Whether you recognise the Power or not the scheme of
things does not alter. Only there is a change of outlook. Why should
you bear your load on the head when you are travelling on a train? It carries
you and your load whether the load is on your head or on the floor of the
train. You are not lessening the burden of the train by keeping it on your head
but only straining yourself unnecessarily. Similar is the sense of doership in
the world by the individuals.
D.: I
have been interesting myself in metaphysics for over twenty years. But I have
not gained any novel experience as so many others claim to do. I have no powers
of clairvoyance, clairaudience, etc. I feel myself locked up in this body and
nothing more.
M.: It
is right. Reality
is only one and that is the self. All the rest are mere Phenomena in it, of it
and by it. The seer, the objects and the sight, all are the self only.
Can anyone see or hear, leaving the self aside? What difference does it make to
see or hear anyone in close proximity or over enormous distance? The organs of
sight and hearing are needed in both cases; so also the mind is required. None of
them can be dispensed with in either case. There is dependence one way or
another. Why then should there be a glamour about clairvoyance or
clairaudience? Moreover, what is acquired will also be lost in due course. They
can never be permanent. The only permanent thing is Reality; and that is
the Self. You say “I am”, “I am going”, “I am speaking”, “I am working”, etc. Hyphenate
“I am” in all of them. Thus I - AM. That
is the abiding and fundamental Reality.
This truth was taught by God to Moses: “I AM that I-AM”. “Be still and know
that I-AM God.” so “I-AM” is God.
You know that you are. You cannot deny your existence at any
moment of time. For you must be there in order to deny it. This (Pure
Existence) is understood by stilling your mind. The mind is the outgoing
faculty of the individual. If that is turned within, it becomes still in course
of time and that “I-AM” alone prevails. “I-AM” is the whole Truth.
D.: I appreciate the whole answer.
M.: Who is there to appreciate what?
A question about Heart. Sri Bhagavan said: Leave alone the
idea of right and left. They pertain to the body. The Heart is the Self. Realise
it and then you will see for yourself. (Mr. Lorey thanked Sri Bhagavan and
saluted him before retiring.)
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Sri Bhagavan said: All mistake the mind-consciousness for
Self-Consciousness. There is no mind in deep sleep; but no one denies
his being in sleep. Even a child says on waking, “I slept well,” and does not deny
its existence. The ‘I’
rises up, the mind turns outward through the five senses and perceives objects,
this they call direct perception. Asked if ‘I’ is not directly perceived, they
get confused, because ‘I’ does not announce itself as an object in front and
only the perception with the senses can be recognised by them as knowledge:
this habit is so strong with them. A stanza in Thevaram says:
“O sages, eager to get over all misery, worry not about inferences and
examples! Our Light is ever shining forth from within! With mind clear, live in
God!”
This is direct
perception. Will the common people admit it? They want God to appear in front
of them as a bright Being mounted on a bull. Such a vision once originated must
also end. It is therefore transient.
Thevaram speaks of the Eternal and Ever-experienced Being. This Thevaram takes
one directly to the Reality.
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An Australian gentleman (Mr. Lowman) is on a visit here. He
seems to be studying the Hindu system of Philosophy. He started saying that he
believed in unity, the jiva
is yet in illusion and so on.
M.: What
is the unity you believe in? How can the jiva
find a place in it?
D.: The
Unity is the Absolute.
M.: The jiva
cannot find a place in Unity.
D.: But
the jiva has not realised the Absolute and imagines itself separate.
M.: Jiva is
separate because it must exist in order to imagine something.
D.: But
it is unreal.
M.: Any
unreal thing cannot produce effects. It is like saying that you killed some
animal with the horn of a hare. A hare does not grow horns.
D.: I
see the absurdity. But I speak from the physical plane.
M.: You
say, ‘I’. Who is that ‘I’? If that is found you can later say whose is the
illusion.
A little later Sri Bhagavan asked: You say you are in the
physical plane now. In which plane are you in dreamless sleep?
D.: I
think in the physical plane again.
M.: You
say, “I think”. That means
that you are saying it now when you are awake. Anyway you admit that you exist
in deep sleep. Don’t you?
D.: Yes,
but I did not function then.
M.: So then, you existed in deep sleep. You
are the same one who continues to exist? Are you not?
D.: Yes.
M.: With this difference - that you did not
function in your sleep. Rather you are associated with the thinking faculty in
your waking state and you are dissociated from it in sleep. Is it not so?
D.: Yes.
M.: Which is then your real nature? Is it
to be associated with thinking or to be dissociated?
D.: I see it now. But I was not aware of my
being in sleep.
M.: You say so now. You do not say so in
your sleep. Or do you deny your being (very existence in sleep)?
D.: No.
M.: It amounts to this that you exist in
both states. The Absolute Existence is the Self. You are also conscious of the
Existence. That Existence is also consciousness (Sat and Chit). That is your real
nature.
D.: But
thinking is necessary even for realisation.
M.: That thinking is aimed at the
elimination of all thinking.
D.: Owing to my ignorance, I do not realise
the Absolute Existence-Consciousness.
M.: Who is the ‘I’? Whose is the ignorance!
Answers to these questions will alone suffice to prove that you are already
realised. Is there anyone who denies his own
existence? Or can anyone say that he did not exist in his sleep? Pure Existence is thus admitted.
The admission also implies consciousness. Thus all men are realised. There
is no ignorant man at all.
D.: Yes,
I understand. But I have a small question to ask. The state of Realisation is
one of desirelessness. If a human being is desireless he ceases to be human.
M.: You admit your existence in sleep. You
did not function then. You were not aware of any gross body. You did not limit
yourself to this body. So you could not find anything separate from your Self. Now
in your waking state you continue to be the same Existence with the limitations
of the body added. These limitations make you see other objects. Hence arises
desire. But the state of desirelessness in sleep made you no less happy than
now. You did not feel any want. You did not make yourself miserable by not
entertaining desires. But now you entertain desires because you are limited to this
human frame. Why do you wish to retain these limitations and continue to
entertain desires?
Sri Bhagavan continued: Does the body tell you that it is
there? It is certainly something apart from the body that remains aware. What
is it? Do you say that it
is the ‘I’, meaning the ego which arises simultaneously with the waking of the
individual from sleep? Be it so. The body is not sentient. The Absolute does not speak.
The ego does. One does not aspire for liberation in sleep. The
aspiration arises only in the waking state. The functions of the waking state are those
of the ego which is synonymous with the ‘I’. Find out who this ‘I’ is.
On doing so and abiding as ‘I’, all these doubts will be cleared up.
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There are, no doubt, other methods for the suppression of
passion. They are (1) regulated food, (2) fasting, (3) yoga practice, (4) medicines.
But their effects are transitory. The passions reappear with greater force as
soon as the check is removed. The only way to overcome them is to eradicate
them. That is done by finding their source as stated above.
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Maj. Chadwick asked Sri Bhagavan one night: The world is
said to become manifest after the mind becomes manifest. There is no mind when
I sleep. Is the world not existent to others at that time? Does it not show
that the world is the product of a universal mind? How then shall we say that
the world is not material but only dream-like?
M.: The world does not tell you that it is
of the individual mind or of the universal mind.
It is only the
individual mind that sees the world. When this mind disappears the world also
disappears. There was a man who saw in his dream his father who had
died thirty years earlier. Furthermore he dreamt that he had four more brothers
and that his father divided his property among them. A quarrel ensued, the
brothers assaulted the man and he woke up in a fright. Then he remembered that
he was all alone, he had no brothers and the father was dead long ago. His
fright gave place to contentment. So you see - when we see our Self there is no
world, and when we lose sight of the Self we get ourselves bound in the world.
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D.: Is
there only one Self or are there more selves?
M.: This
is again due to confusion; you identify the body with the Self. You think:
“Here I am; here he is, there is another; and so on”. You find many bodies and
think they are so many selves. But did you ask in your sleep “I am sleeping
here, how many are there who are awake?” Does any question arise, for the
matter of that? Why does it not arise? Because you are only one and there are
not many.
D.: What
is my tattva (truth)?
M.: You
are yourself the tattva. Is there a different one to know the tattva of
another? How can you exist apart from the tattva? The very fact of your existence makes you ask this
question. Your very existence is the tattva. Give up the habiliments of the tattva and
remain in your essential nature. All the Scriptures tell you only not to waste
your efforts in non-truth - non-tattva. Give up the nontattva. Then tattva
remains always shining pure and single.
D.: I
want to know my tattva and my duties.
M.: Know
your tattva first and then you may ask what your duties are. You must
exist in order to know and do your duty. Realise your existence and then
enquire of your duties.
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Atma is always Sat-Chit-Ananda. Of these, the first two are experienced in all the states,
whereas the last one is said to be experienced in sleep only.
The question arises how the true nature of the Self can be
lost in the waking and dream states. It is, really speaking, not lost. In sleep
there is no mind and the Self shines as Itself, whereas in the other two states
what shines forth is the reflected light of the Self. Ananda is
felt after the cessation of thoughts in sleep. It is also manifest on other occasions
as love, joy, etc., priya, moda and pramoda. But they are all chitta
vrittis (modes of mind).
When a man is walking in the street his mind is full of
fleeting thoughts. Suppose he passes a bazaar where some fine mangoes are for
sale. He likes the mangoes and purchases them. He is next anxious to taste
them. So he hastens home and eats them and feels happy.
When the fleeting thoughts give way to the pleasure at the
sight of mangoes, it is priya, when he gets them as his own, the pleasure is moda;
lastly, when he eats them, the pleasure is pramoda. All the three kinds of pleasure are owing to the
disappearance of other thoughts.
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D.: How can there be life in stone? It is
unconscious.
M.: The whole universe is full of life. You say the stone is unconscious. It is your
self-consciousness which now speaks of unconsciousness. When a person wants to
see if there is an article in a dark room he takes a lamp to look for it. The
light is useful for detecting the presence and the absence of the thing. Consciousness is necessary for
discovering if a thing is conscious or not. If a man remains in a dark
room one need not take a lamp to find him. If called, he answers. He does not require a lamp to
announce his presence. Consciousness is thus self-shining.
Now you
say you were unconscious in sleep and self-conscious in the wakeful state.
Which is the Reality? The
Reality must be continuous and eternal. Neither the unconsciousness nor
the self-consciousness of the present is the Reality. But you admit your
existence all through. The pure Being is the reality. The others are mere
associations. The pure Being cannot be otherwise than consciousness. Otherwise
you cannot say that you exist. Therefore consciousness is the reality. When
that consciousness is associated with upadhis
you speak of self-consciousness, unconsciousness,
sub-consciousness, super-consciousness, human consciousness, dog-consciousness,
tree-consciousness and so on. The unaltering common factor in all of them is
consciousness. Therefore the stone is as much unconscious as you are in sleep.
Is that totally devoid of consciousness?
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Sri Bhagavan said: They
pray to God and finish with “Thy Will be done!” If His Will be done why do they
pray at all? It is true that the Divine Will prevails at all times and under
all circumstances. The individuals cannot act of their own accord. Recognise the force of the Divine
Will and keep quiet. Each one is looked after by God. He has created all. You
are one among 2,000 millions. When He looks after so many will He omit you?
Even common sense dictates that one should abide by His Will.
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D.: Are
not the Brahmins considered to be the priests or intermediaries between God and
others?
M.: Yes.
But who is a Brahmin? A Brahmin is one who has realized Brahman. Such a one has
no sense of individuality in him. He cannot think that he acts as an
intermediary. Again, as for prayer, a realised man does not see others as
different from oneself. How can he pray at all, and to whom and for what? His
very presence is the consummation of happiness for all. So long as you think
that there are others different from you, you pray for them. But the sense of
separateness is ignorance. This ignorance is again the cause of feeling
helplessness. You know that you are weak and helpless. How then can you help
others? If you say, “By prayer to God”, God knows His business and does not
require your intercession for others.
Help yourself so that you may become strong. That is done by
complete surrender. That means you offer yourself to Him. So you cannot retain
your individuality after surrender. You then abide by His Will. Thus Silence is
the Highest of all achievements.
Silence is the ocean in which all the rivers of all the
religions discharge themselves. So says Thayumanavar. He also adds that the
Vedic religion is the only one which combines both philosophy and religion.
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Another devotee: Is
it not that the ‘I’ exists only in relation to a ‘this’ (aham - idam)?
M.: ‘I’,
‘this’ appear together now. But ‘this’ is contained (vyaptam)
in the ‘I’ - they are not apart. ‘This’ has to merge into and become one with
‘I’. The ‘I’ that remains over is the true ‘I’.
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M.: Owing
to the disciple’s want of reverence, grace may become effective only after a
long time. It is said that awaking from ignorance is like awaking from a
fearful dream of a beast. It is thus. There are two taints of mind, namely
veiling and restlessness (avarana
and vikshepa). Of the two, the former is evil, the latter is not so. So
long as the veiling effect of sleep persists there is the frightful dream; on
awaking the veiling ceases; and there is no more fear. Restlessness is not a
bar to happiness. To get rid of the restlessness caused by the world, one seeks
the restlessness (activity) of being with the Guru, studying the sacred books
and worshipping God with forms, and by these awakening is attained. What
happens in the end? Karna was ever the son of Kunti. The tenth man was such all
along. Rama was Vishnu all the time. Such is jnanam. It is being aware of That which always is.
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M.: You
say the mind and body suffer. But do they ask the questions? Who is the
questioner? Is it not the one that is beyond both mind and body?
You say the body suffers in this life;
the cause of this is the previous life: its cause is the one before it, and so
on. So, like the case of the seed
and the sprout, there is no end to the causal series.
It has to be said that all the lives have their first cause in ignorance. That same
ignorance is present even now, framing this question. That ignorance must be
removed by jnanam. “Why and to whom did this suffering come?” If you question
thus you will find that the ‘I’ is separate from the mind and body, that the
Self is the only eternal being, and that It is eternal bliss. That is jnanam.
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D.: That
will lead to want of interest in our work. Should we do our duty or not?
M.: Yes
- certainly. Even if you try not to do your duty you will be perforce obliged
to do it. Let the body complete the task for which it came into being.
Sri Krishna also says in the Gita, whether Arjuna liked it
or not he would be forced to fight. When there is work to be done by you, you cannot keep away; nor can you
continue to do a thing when you are not required to do it, that is to say, when
the work allotted to you has been done. In short, the work will go on
and you must take your share in it - the share which is allotted to you.
D.: How
is it to be done?
M.: Like an actor
playing his part in a drama - free from love or hatred.
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